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SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: I am going into self exile.
« on: December 30, 2020, 07:59:51 pm »
I have joined this forum for a short time to deal with one or two matters. I seek no approval and do not aim to change peoples minds.
I do regret the situation as it stands but My views I do not regret. My views are long held and I believe strongly reflect the ideas on what a Gorean place should strive to be.
I regret and am sorry to see that by a small happening GS has fallen even further into a path of self destruction. But it must be said that the event at the tavern involving aura and others did not create the rift, it merely widened it.
Before I answer the words of the council as presented by Sandman I will present this bit of information that is already known to some but not all.
From: Gary Melander <poolsidesquare@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 7 December 2020 3:42 AM
I have no problem with you visiting any room in any of my chats. You are certainly welcome.
I do have an issue with the GS Council booting paid members. This affects my business and I wasn't consulted.
GaryM
I also know that the site owner wrote to the council and I assume informed them of this changed scenario. The council to My knowledge has remained silent and acted as if it did not happen.
Further to this
Hunter and aura only know of the said ban because some friends that have access to the corks told us. There has been not a word from any of you so called leaders. No words in GS nor an email. No formal manner of informing us at all. That is reprehensible. You the council beg to be taken seriously yet can not be taken seriously when a serious matter of correspondence is deemed unnecessary.
I respect your decision and the right of others to offer their opinnions.
But the council is right and you are wrong. Even when your are right if you disagree with the council ever you will pay for it over the long term. Hardly the stuff of a benevolent government. Dictatorship is a better description and yet the council itself is torn apart and each blame the others when confronted. I know this because I have seen some responses given to others privately when the decision was challenged.
In reality the whole system of using captaincy and rank as the carrot on a stick to repress free expression is the greatest problem GS has and because of this trust is virtually non existant in GS. Those few that are trustworthy and honorable to Me know who they are.
I posted this in forum and am posting it here due to the number of comments.
If you did what your supposed to do in a fair and effective manner in the first place there would be no comments. If you set an example in strong and courageous leadership there would not be dissent and lack of respect.
You are all welcome to express your opinions, respectfully stated or otherwise. Remember, though you may be entitled to your opinions, you are not entitled to your own set of facts.
All the facts are there for all to read in the scribing from the tavern that day. This seems to suggest the council has other information. That would be untrue. In actual fact there are no other facts of relevance so people are indeed expressing their opinions based on what happened not their own version.
The facts are:
aura attempted to murder rose
That is an opinion not a fact.
aura did not try to muder anyone...she roleplayed dealing with an enemy character..something common on gor and in many gorean chat homes...true she used the words your dead ...but I would call that a threat and an expression of will, not a matter of fact. Since ms rose begged to leave and left on her own two feet then that is the only relevant fact with regard to the above opinion.
Perhaps you have forgotten what Gor by the books and by the example of many other gorean homes on the internet is. It is violent. slaves and Men fight maim and kill if left to themselves and that is their right, yet GS has become so tame its been forgotten. The influence and guidance of the books has been forgotten also and that is a serious issue.
Whether the roleplay was acceptable to all is a matter for conjecture and I will admit that ms rose should have been informed before it began formally though there were warnings given and ignored at other times as aura indicates in part of the text. There are varying opinions on what slaves can and cannot do. Every Free Man and owner decides what that is for His own property and the council rightly decide on what is correct for those slaves that wear the gs collar. As far as slave behaviour in GS goes well who knows what is acceptable. The old manuals ramble here there and everywhere but there is a lot of confusion and contradiction.
Let us not mention the banal and childish insults hurled at aura by so called Free Men in the tavern at the time of the incident.
It is said that Men will often barely notice when slaves fight and even turn the other way. In this case they noticed but did nothing until after the event and clearly that behaviour was unhelpful and completely ungorean.
'A master takes no interest in the squabbles of slaves, it being beneath him.'
Nomads of Gor Book 4 Page 138
As far as why aura chose to roleplay in this way at that time and her state of mind, that is not the business of the council nor anyone else that uses GS however the circumstances are known to many.
aura is owned by Hunter and he is responsible for her acts
And aura is punishable only by Me. That is a fact. It may be the only one of any importance.
The council is interfering in something that is not their concern if we are to be fully truthful here.
The council had a right to judge the death or non death of a non slave guest within its tavern and no more. However as neither aura or ms rose wear GS steel they have no authority over them in any form.
In almost every case of wrongdoing at this level in the past, the punishment the Council has been a permanent ban or Death.
By all means provide a list of those that were banned or killed. I've not seen anything more than misbehaving slaves virtually punished in many long years yet your now saying murder or killing is ok? Can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The hypocricy is startling.
Some have said that its wrong to act out violence because it might affect people in rt. If this is the case then what did those alleged deaths do?
Yet it is held as a given by a lot of people that come online to roleplay that once we enter the realm our real life as it were is of little or no relevance (though of course how an individal feels in their real time world does affect their experience in character). Futhermore we step into the realm aware of the risk and consequence to the character we portray. If one cannot adopt that philosophy and practice then they have no place in roleplay to begin with one could argue.
With all this in mind the double standards we are seeing evident here are surely a concern.
What is the effect on a slave that gets virtually branded? The council is happy to do that and not worry about the effect and the slave accepts that or at least says so. Do the people holding a vitual whip and cutting a slaves virtual skin get punished? Explain to all where the differences lie.
I say there are no differences and the whole attitude of this ban and punishment has little to do with what aura did that day but stems rather from a premeditated mindset.
The fact that the punishment wasn't a permanent ban or death is in fact merciful on the part of the Council
How magnaminous and noble. Humorous even. To justify an injustice by claiming leniency is as bizzare and insulting to people as it gets. It is a sign of weakness and uncertainty no less.
aura has not apologized for her act nor has Hunter apologized for her actions-- that is a fact-- and the fact of their silence speaks volumes.
aura has to say sorry to whom? and for what?
That is not made clear anywhere.
aura did say sorry however and so did Hunter. The transcript of those words is available. It was said to Master of One in a formal setting soon after the tavern roleplay. It was assumed those words were sent to the rest of the council.
When it comes to silence speaking volumes there is no doubt that council silence over many years when things needed to be said and done is the loudest thing in Port Kar. If the council demanded a high gorean standard there are many that would not be guests or visitors for long. The council has twiddled its thumbs for years while the Gorean in Gorean Shores has been diminishing steadily. It can only be described as abject failure. Before you say oh but its thriving and numbers are up, the quality is always more important than numbers. It wouldnt matter if there were a hundred pledges and 200 slaves if there are no strict gorean standards. It becomes just another chatsite for meetups.
aura/Hunter have in fact chosen to attempted to manipulate others behind the scenes.
No idea what this is supposed to mean to be honest, however, as people are not supposed to speak to us so I've heard (although most do anyway) how could we manipulate anyone?
Not to mention the fact that I have always found Goreans to be strong minded people and they decide their own allegiances and politics. Is the council suggesting Gorean Shores people are weak and cannot make their own minds up about how they feel and act?
However lets have some evidence of this allegation also.
aura has not honored the ban.
What ban? The site owner made it clear there is no ban.
The fact is, Council of Captains investigated the occurrence and gave each of the parties involved in this incident a chance to speak.
Hardly. You conducted a premeditated open courtroom and only Master of One had any words with Hunter on the matter. Zoran tried to speak with aura as well but was silenced. The council made the council business a public domain and encouraged folks to help them decide but now when folks express an opinion it is met with scorn and ridicule . And yet none of it was any business of the council as I said earlier.
The Council made the decision based on facts-- not based on who likes who, who thinks who is more Gorean, who is whose buddy.
This statement is both untrue and the ramblings of panic. The authority of the council is being challenged and made irelevant when people ignore it so the only answer is to publicly condemn people when they speak out in opposition. Incidentally as it is a gorean site being more gorean should be a prime requisite of entry.
Further it is a fact that the Council made it clear that rose played a part in this, and has been restricted to only being in GS with her Master; to the best of my knowledge, she and Wanderlust have honored that decision.
ms rose is not banned either by Garys words
An additional fact is that there are reports that the Council has attempted to have aura and Hunter's memberships revoked. Those reports are incorect. We have never discussed aura's or Hunter's memberships being cancelled or suspended. That has never been a part of a ban in the 15 years + I have been pledged to GS.
Think you will find that Elder Physician was spreading that nonsense and all thinking people would not take it seriously. And clearly you have no such power anyway.
Further the statement made by Bretval on the corks offering his opinion that the Council is getting rid of an irritant -- the fact is we have tolerated plenty of irritants in GS ( including him as a tag he has applied with his own words and not us for the record) over my many years and will continue in the future.
Probably not the place to take a cheap shot at Bretval. What you really mean is anyone that disagrees with you is a problem. And the way that is dealt with is to ignore the qualities that are needed in a captain or any other rank and deliberately and with malice consistently pass over those that would improve Gorean Shores in such roles.
By the way I dont mean Myself. I have never held any interest in being a captain. Indeed I have told people at various times were it ever offered I would decline. My interest has always been simply in Gorean Shores being Gorean.
The members of the Council take their responsibilities very seriously and do not arrive at decisions lightly.
What responsibilities?
Seriously its hardly a mammoth task. Two dozen chatters at most in GS history but from these words one could be forgiven for thinking the council thinks it is running a giant corporation.
Lets be brutally honest for once and say the council is nothing more than a few bullies deciding what chatters may think and say with no consistency to the standards and with clear bias shown over a long period of time.
Perhaps some of you should actually consider the facts rather than ignoring them when you form your opinions and express them
As stated above all the facts are there to read.
The following quote says it very well indeed with regard to all of this situation that occurred after the event in the tavern that day and indeed many many times before. It speaks Of the defensiveness of those that are meant to cater for the best interests of Gorean Shores and its patrons that come in good faith to roleplay within a set of ideals and a structure that protects the Gorean ideal and spirit and in which it has indeed failed.
It was lovely, and tempting, to exert power over men and to shine before others, but power also had its perditions and perils. History, after all, consisted of an unbroken succession of rulers, leaders, bosses, and commanders who with extremely rare exceptions had all begun well and ended badly. All of them, at least so they said, had striven for power for the sake of the good; afterward they had become obsessed and numbed by power and loved it for its own sake.
Hermann Hesse
The Glass Bead Game (1943)
Happy New Year all.
Hunter
ps I hereby renounce the pledge. It is not possible to continue to support the concept of Gorean Shores as long as it is non gorean and hremains morphed into some kind of romantic getaway.
I do regret the situation as it stands but My views I do not regret. My views are long held and I believe strongly reflect the ideas on what a Gorean place should strive to be.
I regret and am sorry to see that by a small happening GS has fallen even further into a path of self destruction. But it must be said that the event at the tavern involving aura and others did not create the rift, it merely widened it.
Before I answer the words of the council as presented by Sandman I will present this bit of information that is already known to some but not all.
From: Gary Melander <poolsidesquare@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 7 December 2020 3:42 AM
I have no problem with you visiting any room in any of my chats. You are certainly welcome.
I do have an issue with the GS Council booting paid members. This affects my business and I wasn't consulted.
GaryM
I also know that the site owner wrote to the council and I assume informed them of this changed scenario. The council to My knowledge has remained silent and acted as if it did not happen.
Further to this
Hunter and aura only know of the said ban because some friends that have access to the corks told us. There has been not a word from any of you so called leaders. No words in GS nor an email. No formal manner of informing us at all. That is reprehensible. You the council beg to be taken seriously yet can not be taken seriously when a serious matter of correspondence is deemed unnecessary.
I respect your decision and the right of others to offer their opinnions.
But the council is right and you are wrong. Even when your are right if you disagree with the council ever you will pay for it over the long term. Hardly the stuff of a benevolent government. Dictatorship is a better description and yet the council itself is torn apart and each blame the others when confronted. I know this because I have seen some responses given to others privately when the decision was challenged.
In reality the whole system of using captaincy and rank as the carrot on a stick to repress free expression is the greatest problem GS has and because of this trust is virtually non existant in GS. Those few that are trustworthy and honorable to Me know who they are.
I posted this in forum and am posting it here due to the number of comments.
If you did what your supposed to do in a fair and effective manner in the first place there would be no comments. If you set an example in strong and courageous leadership there would not be dissent and lack of respect.
You are all welcome to express your opinions, respectfully stated or otherwise. Remember, though you may be entitled to your opinions, you are not entitled to your own set of facts.
All the facts are there for all to read in the scribing from the tavern that day. This seems to suggest the council has other information. That would be untrue. In actual fact there are no other facts of relevance so people are indeed expressing their opinions based on what happened not their own version.
The facts are:
aura attempted to murder rose
That is an opinion not a fact.
aura did not try to muder anyone...she roleplayed dealing with an enemy character..something common on gor and in many gorean chat homes...true she used the words your dead ...but I would call that a threat and an expression of will, not a matter of fact. Since ms rose begged to leave and left on her own two feet then that is the only relevant fact with regard to the above opinion.
Perhaps you have forgotten what Gor by the books and by the example of many other gorean homes on the internet is. It is violent. slaves and Men fight maim and kill if left to themselves and that is their right, yet GS has become so tame its been forgotten. The influence and guidance of the books has been forgotten also and that is a serious issue.
Whether the roleplay was acceptable to all is a matter for conjecture and I will admit that ms rose should have been informed before it began formally though there were warnings given and ignored at other times as aura indicates in part of the text. There are varying opinions on what slaves can and cannot do. Every Free Man and owner decides what that is for His own property and the council rightly decide on what is correct for those slaves that wear the gs collar. As far as slave behaviour in GS goes well who knows what is acceptable. The old manuals ramble here there and everywhere but there is a lot of confusion and contradiction.
Let us not mention the banal and childish insults hurled at aura by so called Free Men in the tavern at the time of the incident.
It is said that Men will often barely notice when slaves fight and even turn the other way. In this case they noticed but did nothing until after the event and clearly that behaviour was unhelpful and completely ungorean.
'A master takes no interest in the squabbles of slaves, it being beneath him.'
Nomads of Gor Book 4 Page 138
As far as why aura chose to roleplay in this way at that time and her state of mind, that is not the business of the council nor anyone else that uses GS however the circumstances are known to many.
aura is owned by Hunter and he is responsible for her acts
And aura is punishable only by Me. That is a fact. It may be the only one of any importance.
The council is interfering in something that is not their concern if we are to be fully truthful here.
The council had a right to judge the death or non death of a non slave guest within its tavern and no more. However as neither aura or ms rose wear GS steel they have no authority over them in any form.
In almost every case of wrongdoing at this level in the past, the punishment the Council has been a permanent ban or Death.
By all means provide a list of those that were banned or killed. I've not seen anything more than misbehaving slaves virtually punished in many long years yet your now saying murder or killing is ok? Can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The hypocricy is startling.
Some have said that its wrong to act out violence because it might affect people in rt. If this is the case then what did those alleged deaths do?
Yet it is held as a given by a lot of people that come online to roleplay that once we enter the realm our real life as it were is of little or no relevance (though of course how an individal feels in their real time world does affect their experience in character). Futhermore we step into the realm aware of the risk and consequence to the character we portray. If one cannot adopt that philosophy and practice then they have no place in roleplay to begin with one could argue.
With all this in mind the double standards we are seeing evident here are surely a concern.
What is the effect on a slave that gets virtually branded? The council is happy to do that and not worry about the effect and the slave accepts that or at least says so. Do the people holding a vitual whip and cutting a slaves virtual skin get punished? Explain to all where the differences lie.
I say there are no differences and the whole attitude of this ban and punishment has little to do with what aura did that day but stems rather from a premeditated mindset.
The fact that the punishment wasn't a permanent ban or death is in fact merciful on the part of the Council
How magnaminous and noble. Humorous even. To justify an injustice by claiming leniency is as bizzare and insulting to people as it gets. It is a sign of weakness and uncertainty no less.
aura has not apologized for her act nor has Hunter apologized for her actions-- that is a fact-- and the fact of their silence speaks volumes.
aura has to say sorry to whom? and for what?
That is not made clear anywhere.
aura did say sorry however and so did Hunter. The transcript of those words is available. It was said to Master of One in a formal setting soon after the tavern roleplay. It was assumed those words were sent to the rest of the council.
When it comes to silence speaking volumes there is no doubt that council silence over many years when things needed to be said and done is the loudest thing in Port Kar. If the council demanded a high gorean standard there are many that would not be guests or visitors for long. The council has twiddled its thumbs for years while the Gorean in Gorean Shores has been diminishing steadily. It can only be described as abject failure. Before you say oh but its thriving and numbers are up, the quality is always more important than numbers. It wouldnt matter if there were a hundred pledges and 200 slaves if there are no strict gorean standards. It becomes just another chatsite for meetups.
aura/Hunter have in fact chosen to attempted to manipulate others behind the scenes.
No idea what this is supposed to mean to be honest, however, as people are not supposed to speak to us so I've heard (although most do anyway) how could we manipulate anyone?
Not to mention the fact that I have always found Goreans to be strong minded people and they decide their own allegiances and politics. Is the council suggesting Gorean Shores people are weak and cannot make their own minds up about how they feel and act?
However lets have some evidence of this allegation also.
aura has not honored the ban.
What ban? The site owner made it clear there is no ban.
The fact is, Council of Captains investigated the occurrence and gave each of the parties involved in this incident a chance to speak.
Hardly. You conducted a premeditated open courtroom and only Master of One had any words with Hunter on the matter. Zoran tried to speak with aura as well but was silenced. The council made the council business a public domain and encouraged folks to help them decide but now when folks express an opinion it is met with scorn and ridicule . And yet none of it was any business of the council as I said earlier.
The Council made the decision based on facts-- not based on who likes who, who thinks who is more Gorean, who is whose buddy.
This statement is both untrue and the ramblings of panic. The authority of the council is being challenged and made irelevant when people ignore it so the only answer is to publicly condemn people when they speak out in opposition. Incidentally as it is a gorean site being more gorean should be a prime requisite of entry.
Further it is a fact that the Council made it clear that rose played a part in this, and has been restricted to only being in GS with her Master; to the best of my knowledge, she and Wanderlust have honored that decision.
ms rose is not banned either by Garys words
An additional fact is that there are reports that the Council has attempted to have aura and Hunter's memberships revoked. Those reports are incorect. We have never discussed aura's or Hunter's memberships being cancelled or suspended. That has never been a part of a ban in the 15 years + I have been pledged to GS.
Think you will find that Elder Physician was spreading that nonsense and all thinking people would not take it seriously. And clearly you have no such power anyway.
Further the statement made by Bretval on the corks offering his opinion that the Council is getting rid of an irritant -- the fact is we have tolerated plenty of irritants in GS ( including him as a tag he has applied with his own words and not us for the record) over my many years and will continue in the future.
Probably not the place to take a cheap shot at Bretval. What you really mean is anyone that disagrees with you is a problem. And the way that is dealt with is to ignore the qualities that are needed in a captain or any other rank and deliberately and with malice consistently pass over those that would improve Gorean Shores in such roles.
By the way I dont mean Myself. I have never held any interest in being a captain. Indeed I have told people at various times were it ever offered I would decline. My interest has always been simply in Gorean Shores being Gorean.
The members of the Council take their responsibilities very seriously and do not arrive at decisions lightly.
What responsibilities?
Seriously its hardly a mammoth task. Two dozen chatters at most in GS history but from these words one could be forgiven for thinking the council thinks it is running a giant corporation.
Lets be brutally honest for once and say the council is nothing more than a few bullies deciding what chatters may think and say with no consistency to the standards and with clear bias shown over a long period of time.
Perhaps some of you should actually consider the facts rather than ignoring them when you form your opinions and express them
As stated above all the facts are there to read.
The following quote says it very well indeed with regard to all of this situation that occurred after the event in the tavern that day and indeed many many times before. It speaks Of the defensiveness of those that are meant to cater for the best interests of Gorean Shores and its patrons that come in good faith to roleplay within a set of ideals and a structure that protects the Gorean ideal and spirit and in which it has indeed failed.
It was lovely, and tempting, to exert power over men and to shine before others, but power also had its perditions and perils. History, after all, consisted of an unbroken succession of rulers, leaders, bosses, and commanders who with extremely rare exceptions had all begun well and ended badly. All of them, at least so they said, had striven for power for the sake of the good; afterward they had become obsessed and numbed by power and loved it for its own sake.
Hermann Hesse
The Glass Bead Game (1943)
Happy New Year all.
Hunter
ps I hereby renounce the pledge. It is not possible to continue to support the concept of Gorean Shores as long as it is non gorean and hremains morphed into some kind of romantic getaway.